Broly? SSJ2?

[MajinDruu]

There's been a big debate about this on the Brolly release thread so , Lets continue the discussion in a friendly manner where its on topic eh guys?

[Jugo]

Doesn't this belong to the anime and manga section ?

anyway, he doesn't go ssj2 he is lssj (legendary super saiyan) if ya dont believe me, read this:

http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~vegex/guides/transformations/saiyan/index.shtml

[Optimus Prime]

Moved to Anime.

[Jesus]

dude, thats just another fan site, written as interpreted by a fan, its not official, and neither is the term LSSJ as stated by toriyama in an interview. brolly is just another saiyan who can transform past ssj, it doesnt matter what level it is, since he is unique, but it definately ISNT a form called legendary, thats just the name he is given. at best he reached an ascended state that no one else did, without actually going ssj2

[Vegeta]

The only transformation Broli ever used was LSSJ/USSJ. Whichever you prefer. You have your info. Please, just put a lid on it now.

[L]

dude, thats just another fan site, written as interpreted by a fan, its not official, and neither is the term LSSJ as stated by toriyama in an interview. brolly is just another saiyan who can transform past ssj, it doesnt matter what level it is, since he is unique, but it definately ISNT a form called legendary, thats just the name he is given. at best he reached an ascended state that no one else did, without actually going ssj2
I like repeating other ppl cuase it saves me time hehe, Anyways, I saw Gir post this 3 times now.. There Is no such transformation as LSSJ or USSJ.. Its only a fan made term..
and brolly doesnt go SSJ2, He only has 1 transformation wich is SSJ and he just power's up to his max wich isnt really a 2nd transformation anyways..

[Ravendust]

The only transformation Broli ever used was LSSJ/USSJ. Whichever you prefer. You have your info. Please, just put a lid on it now.
He used regular SSJ in Movie 10.

Right! I'm fairly sure I can clear this up. His first form was Normal BUT he could go SSJ from birth, he was born with 10,000PL. It's shown in Movies 8, 10 and 11 (Broly's clone).

http://www.geocities.com/warriorsofsteel2000/dbz149.jpg

Then he had the powered up state, this is the state he transforms to in his first fight with Goku when they jump out of the window. It is also his default state in Budokai 3. The traits of this state are that ki and aura turn gold but hair remains the same colour, although his hair and body is slightly highlighted. Goku went to this stage in Movie 4 - Lord Slug. The japanese name for this state is 'Giji Super Saiya-jin' which means 'False Super Saiyan'. It is sometimes referred to as Semi-Super Saiyan. It is shown in Movie 08.

http://www.geocities.com/ultra_dbz_realm/BroliFloating.jpeg

His next stage in terms of power is SSJ. Plain, Regular SSJ. It is shown in Movie 10. http://www.sayanworld.it/nemici/broly2.jpg

His most powerful form is the one known as Legendary. This is his unique form, as he only Legendary Super Saiyan alive. It is not a USSJ form as the bones and skull increase in size and not just the muscles. FUNimation and Atari call it the 'Legendary' form. It apparently doesn't have a japanese name. The power boost it gives is comparable to SSJ2 but it is NOT SSJ2. It is shown in Movies 08, 10 and 11 (Broly's clone)

http://phanou38.free.fr/DBZ/broly.jpg

And then if you want to be pedantic, his clone went Legendary then had all it's flesh melted off with purple bio fluid. His eyes swelled up and went red, and you could see his heart through the remains of his chest. Not technically a form but I thought it should be said to avoid confusion.

Anyway, if you read otherwise on a fansite, they are wrong. Case closed unless someone has hard (and I mean granite strength hardness) evidence otherwise.

[FreeDoM]

Technically just a plain Super Saiyan, they say he's legendary in the original japanese version not because of the state, like SSJ2 or SSJ3. Just that he's the strongest Super Saiyan, it's really not all that hard. Brolly is what they're whole race has fables of, a Legendary Super Saiyan.

[Jesus]

legendary is a NAME not a STATE.

just cos when im drunk people call me a legend, doesnt mean i transform into a legendary state, its just a name im given cos im **** hot when im plastered...

[Ravendust]

O.K, then what would you call that final state if not Legendary? It's annoying crux because Toriyama invented it and then said it wasn't a new state. It's like painting a picture of a banana and an orange and saying it's a pair of oranges. It clearly is another state, nameless or otherwise. 100% SSJ perhaps? Pure SSJ? I don't really know (or care), Legendary was a fan-term for the state before Atari officially stuck it in Budokai 3. It's what it is known as, and that works for me.

Either way, back onto the topic, it is not SSJ2. He never goes SSJ2. Ever.

[.Maze]

As far as i know that LSSJ is USSJ !
But i just seen that somewhere long time ago.

so its might be Normal-That Giji thinggy- SSJ- USSJ/LSSJ what so ever

[Ravendust]

That's how I see it :yes:

BTW, here's a comparison, how can Toriyama say that it's not a different state??

http://www.db-unlimited.net/images/img039.jpg
^^^Super Saiyan/SSJ^^^ ^^^Legendary Form/LSSJ^^^

[Jesus]

i think what toriyama was getting at, is that yes, there are different grades of saiyan ie. ssj ssj2 ssj3, but since brolly is the saiyan of legend, he doesnt need grades, he simply is THE super saiyan

[Cap J]

The pic doesn't appear on my computer, but yeah, although the state LSSJ doesn't exist, it is what his state has been dubbed by pretty much everyone as it is a state unique to the Legendary Saiya-Jin.

He never goes SSJ2......SSJ2 would kind of be a down-grade.

It is definatly NOT USSJ/ASSJ as his hair is GREEN, no-one else had green hair in any SSJ form, and even though Trunks lost his pupils for a short amount of time (whilst powering up) they came back whereas Broli's are never there whilst in that form. As Ravendust said, his skeleton also increased it's size whereas no-one elses did.

[Sicron]

His special form is called legendary cos he is the only saiyan who can go ultra super saiyan without losing his speed, gohan can go ssj2 but ussj is stronger (but slower), brolly doesnt have this speed disadvantage...

[Jesus]

O.K, then what would you call that final state if not Legendary? It's annoying crux because Toriyama invented it and then said it wasn't a new state.

As far as i know that LSSJ is USSJ !

That's how I see it

BTW, here's a comparison, how can Toriyama say that it's not a different state??


^^^Super Saiyan/SSJ^^^ ^^^Legendary Form/LSSJ^^^

i think what toriyama was getting at, is that yes, there are different grades of saiyan ie. ssj ssj2 ssj3, but since brolly is the saiyan of legend, he doesnt need grades, he simply is THE super saiyan


i hate when people dont read the important posts...

the answer is right there, he cant transform to a legend, because he was one from birth. he is THE super saiyan, and thus, doesnt need levels or grades, he simply IS.

[solidus]

OMG.... how many times a year does this "discussion" pop up?
ok ok, think back people... back to dbz... remember when they first talk of super saiyan, and say that once every so many years, a LEGENDARY super saiyan is born? THATS BROLLY, in the brolly movies. Remember that none of the dbz movies (other than history of trunks and bardock) have anything to do with dbz. There completely one of stories. (with the exeption of movies that link together)
heck, in lord slug, goku turns ssj with red hair. (isnt kaoken, kai says so).
So, what brollys form then? well, i only know of one form where they loose there pupils... and brolly had so much ki that the trans didnt effect his speed to the point of stopping, but he can move quite slowely.
Now, can we lay this one to rest people?

[jp]

Doesn't really matter, what matters is that he is just awfully strong, yes legendary strong, since no other saiyan baby had that powerlevel...

But fact is, if you see him pissed, your dead, simple as that.

[The_Forgotten]

Ahh, I understand now. Broly with blue hair is Semi - Super Saiyan.
In movie 4, Goku became a Semi - Super Saiyan, too, correct?

[Ravendust]

Solidus, you layed the facts out but didn't give an answer, so no we cannot lay it to rest. Besides, if you actually watch a legit copy of movie 4, his hair doesn't go red, it goes black with gold highlights. The form where the muscles and ONLY the muscles swell and the pupils dissapear is USSJ/Ultra Trunks (sub/dub), which Broly does not transform to.

Gir, you're making no sense. We're not disputing that he is the Legendary Super Saiyan, we know that, it says it on the box and multiple times throughout the movies. You can't say he simply IS the LSSJ transformation, as he has three other forms, so therefore we must assume that it is a different form from SSJ, and all the signs are there that it is. This we understand to be a form unique to the Legendary Super Saiyans born once every thousand years. This form (or stage if you prefer) we call Legendary.

Therefore his states are Normal-Giji-Super Saiyan-Legendary. Maybe we should call the Legendary form something else so as not to get confused, for the sake of simplicity i'll refer to it as SSJX.

To summarise:

Broly IS the Legendary Super Saiyan.

His transformations go Normal-Giji-Super Saiyan-SSJX.

Whereby SSJX is the form understood to be Legendary.

EDIT: Forgotten: That's correct. I don't know if his hair is blue, but its the second pic in post #7, dark with gold highlights.

[Cap J]

The only form where the pupils were lost (besides Broli's form) was the Giji form (people say Broli went Giji too but he kept his pupils), if you noticed I said earlier that Trunks lost his pupils in USSJ but that was ONLY WHEN HE WAS POWERING UP and as you should notice, Broli's pupils are gone for the duration of him being in his form, and also, as I have said NUMEROUS times, NO-ONE else had GREEN hair in any form.

And also note the other constantly stated difference between Broli and USSJ is that Broli's BONE GROW TOO, whereas with USSJ it's only muscle-mass.

Also, USSJ is NOT stronger than SSJ2, Trunks hit Cell in USSJ and hurt him, Gohan hit Cell as SSJ2 and FLOORED HIM.

Yeah, Goku went SSSJ/GSSJ (semi-SSJ/Giji-SSJ) in film 4.....which sucked....that was the worst film in my opinion.

[Jesus]

my point makes perfect sense, im saying that he is called legendary, but that he doesnt transform to a state which is called legendary. how hard can that be to understand?

as i said before, im called a legend when im drunk, but that doesnt mean i transformed to some magical state called legendary, its just a name im given.

brolly is just a super saiyan, THE super saiyan of legend. nothing more. THEEEEE super saiyan.

like when vegeta talked about the saiyan of legend on namek, he just said "zomg teh super saiyan is reborn" (basically)

[Ravendust]

O.K, there's two sides to the argument here, and seeing as you refuse to empathise with ours, i'll go onto yours. If the larger form of SSJ that he ascends to isn't called Legendary, what is it called?

[Jesus]

i dont know, im just saying that toriyama stated its not a new form, which means it can only be called super saiyan, which in itself makes sense, since he is the saiyan of legend >_< meaning, he is the perfect example of what a super saiyan should be...

[-Origin]

SSJ2 is basicly USSJ without the speed loss.

EDIT: I should start posting faster. :\

[Cap J]

@ "X"

Me too :P

@ Gir

You can't call it SSJ as he HAS a normal SSJ form, we are all aware that it doesn't exist but due to no other names it has been labelled LSSJ.

[Ravendust]

I'm fine with that, but they shouldn't have made him go SSJ and LSSJ. If only Toriyama hadn't made that statement we would have probably settled this by now. I'm going to go with the FUNimation name of Legendary, as I mostly watch dubbed DBZ. If you want to believe its his 'other' form of SSJ than that's correct as well. I guess it's down to whether you follow Toriyama religiously or FUNimation's simplicity, and I know where my interests lie.

It's a seperate form, in the sub it is considered to be Broly's extra SSJ, which in the dub we call Legendary. That's all there is to it.

[RavenTrunks]

O.K, there's two sides to the argument here, and seeing as you refuse to empathise with ours, i'll go onto yours. If the larger form of SSJ that he ascends to isn't called Legendary, what is it called?

Skinny me today, I got to gym and get muscles, that make me USH? (ultra super human...). I dont think so im just me but bigger.

he just grows. i think of it as an adreniline rush for his insanity. Just he mutates his bone structure(?)

[Cap J]

Skinny me today, I got to gym and get muscles, that make me USH? (ultra super human...). I dont think so im just me but bigger.

he just grows. i think of it as an adreniline rush for his insanity. Just he mutates his bone structure(?)

Yes but do you loose your pupils? Does your hair turn spikey and green? No? Well Broli's DID, when he went from his SSJ (normal SSJ with yellow hair and pupils and also no limb or muscle growth) to his LSSJ form.

[Iyce Da Kidd]

OMGBBQ IT BEZ DA ULTRA SUPAH SAYAJIN!

Correct transformation name is ascended super saiyan which brolly was the first to achieve... he was just massive in his transformation

[Ravendust]

RavenTrunks, if you went to the Gym and got bigger muscles, your natural state would be more muscular. Broly actually went to a new form that had bigger muscles.

[Cap J]

@ Ice Man

You did read the numerous posts stating why he wasn't USSJ/ASSJ yeah? If not, go back and read them.

[SaiyanPrideXIX]

I believe I have the answer here:

These aren't additional forms. Broly is only a super saiyan, BUT...like Mystic Gohan, his power is absolutely MAXED OUT.

Mystic Gohan basically is what Gohan would be like if his power levels had reached their absolute peak. That's why he doesn't transform anymore--there's no need to, when his normal form is so powerful he doesn't need to "amp up."

Broly's "forms" are really all just him as super saiyan with absurd amounts of power for that level. Not unlike Vegeta, who was insanely powerful when he went super saiyan because of the fact that compared to Goku he was much stronger in the first place (Remember, Goku had to multiply himself with kaioken 5x or so to keep up).

So to summarize, I think Broly is just the result of a maxed out super saiyan form.

[Cap J]

Goku maxed out SSJ in the time chamber with Gohan. They stayed normal. I'm sure we can all just agree that WHATEVER Broli transforms into, it is a form unique to him.

[MajinDruu]

my point makes perfect sense, im saying that he is called legendary, but that he doesnt transform to a state which is called legendary. how hard can that be to understand?

as i said before, im called a legend when im drunk, but that doesnt mean i transformed to some magical state called legendary, its just a name im given.

brolly is just a super saiyan, THE super saiyan of legend. nothing more. THEEEEE super saiyan.

like when vegeta talked about the saiyan of legend on namek, he just said "zomg teh super saiyan is reborn" (basically)
So , your saying , If I could make myself bigger ...
and someone else could make themself bigger , taller , and faster .
that we could do the same thing?

RavenTrunks, if you went to the Gym and got bigger muscles, your natural state would be more muscular. Broly actually went to a new form that had bigger muscles.

Also , he could power down.
However I see the other point of view , Compare this to Frieza's final form
If you think about it , SSJ could be 1% power and Brolly's form could be 100% power.

However there still differnt forms , even if they are differnt forms of the same thing THEY ARE STILL DIFFERENT.

[L]

Brolly is THE super saiyan, the TRUE super saiyan ,Born with the ability to go super saiyan, he had no need to train exstensivley just to gain power becuase he had already had it , but was limited becuase of the head band thing and porunga (I think I spelled it right) had put on him, brolly is what a super saiyan SHOULD be not some saiyan that had gotten really pissed off... and each time some other saiyan had trasformed SSJ for the first time, they each had different pl's when they transformed..so Brolly was TEH < TEH Super Saiyan and was supposed to be the one and only.... untill Kakarotto screwed it up when 2 of his buddy's died, "I..Wont let you get away with this..!" 10 minutes of being constapated and frieza blabbering on "Aaah.." *go's ssj* *fights and blabbers on for 81 minute's although the planet was suposed to explode 5 minutes after frieza used her...his death ball.. Oh and then the planet explodes but goku freeze's time and fly's outta frieza's ship and enter's one of the ginyu forces pods enter's in coordinate's and fly's THEN the planet explodes..(bored heh...)

[Ravendust]

porunga (I think I spelled it right) Paragus, Porunga was the Namekian Dragon :p

goku freeze's time
Nope, he was just really fast and got off Namek on the last possible second.

There's another factor to Broly's Legendary form, he mentions in Movie 08 that his powerlevel automatically increases on it's own, he gets stronger and stronger just by living in that form. This could explain why the first Legendary Super Saiyan kills himself because he had more power than his body could handle, and destroyed himself (as documented by King Kai).

[KoraX]

I love you guys.

[The_Forgotten]

That was random..

[VeTaNaToR]

Paragus, Porunga was the Namekian Dragon :p


Nope, he was just really fast and got off Namek on the last possible second.

There's another factor to Broly's Legendary form, he mentions in Movie 08 that his powerlevel automatically increases on it's own, he gets stronger and stronger just by living in that form. This could explain why the first Legendary Super Saiyan kills himself because he had more power than his body could handle, and destroyed himself (as documented by King Kai).
thats exacly why brolly cant be ussj he gets stronger and stronger.. my suggestion is that the forms that goku, vegeta, trunks and so one have achieved arent real ssj its just powered up saiyan and that brolly is a REAL ssj because goku turned ssj on namek but the ssj legend says that the legendairy super saiyan is a blood thirsty animal wich goku was far from being even as ssj...

[OubliezJe]

Guys, as told and mentioned by many, He is the strongest SSJ, HIs power, if given enough time, could become stronger than a ssj4. Him being the first sayian, sets him higher than the rest and his power limitless. If he can power up and continue to increase in speed and in strength then he is, if not right then in that time,but later, could be the strongest in the whole entire universe. Enough said.

[shaya]

Ummm When Super Saiyan was first mentioned in DBZ (If i recall) they show the image of a super saiyan being an oozaru with some sort of large golden hair, then showing himself being some giant thing on a small 'moon/planet' and blowing himself up ...

Im not an exact expert on the whole Dragon Ball -thing- so anything i can say im happy to be corrected about, but if it hasnt been 'hammered into stone' that Legendary was actually a state, it isnt - sure they may of been some mistakes on the idea but yeh, all we're doing is interpretting(sp) What hard proof we have, which is official or unofficial.

I always thought that (and in general before Buu what SSJ-SSJ2 was refered to in DBZ) as an extended form of Super Saiyan, then after buu (this is in the TV show in DBZ, i dont know nothing else) they started throwing numbers like super saiyan 3 and stuff. But u could then say that all forms of SSJ are just the persons trained level of such, so just to add more to the point Legendary SSJ is just a Broli's level that he can extend to, and with all other 'levels' of SSJ its the just the person controlling their power and being able to handle more power, anyway whatever didnt wanna go into that much extent... bleh

[RavenTrunks]

Ummm When Super Saiyan was first mentioned in DBZ (If i recall) they show the image of a super saiyan being an oozaru with some sort of large golden hair, then showing himself being some giant thing on a small 'moon/planet' and blowing himself up ...
That was the first super saiyan. it had a huge draw back. Reason why Goku was a "revolutionary"(dunno if its the word im looking for) Super Saiyan, is because he had the same power without the huge Oozaru form, and was in control of himself. The first supersaiyan was basicly blinded by his power and became too much for him and his own power destroyed him.

Now with brolly, he just found a form noone else did. Gohan never did a ASSJ/USSJ before he went ssj2. It wasnt nessasary to get those states. same goes with brolly, Its not a higher state, persay, but just different "better" one. Its not "Legendary" just they like to call it that crap.

[The Last]

Allrighty people...first of all BROLLY IS THE yes THE LEGENDARY SSJ...he was born with Goku....He was born with enormous power not needing to train as someone said...so he was born ssj....when him and goku were babys goku would piss and wine so Brolly got traumitized....he hated Goku(Kakorot) forever....his hatred fueled his energy/ki...started to destroy things so the scientist made a necklace and head band to control his powers...when he came in contact with Goku again he lost it cuz he remembere the long nights pissing and moaning (that sounded ***).....the restrictions broke...hatred fueled ki and thats why he is so powerful...as he grew older he became stronger....so yes kids....Brolly is the one and only LSSJ....nothing more...and no one else has achieved it and ever will unless they are born like him...all the other ssj's are the kind achieved differently.....cuz they didnt have tails.....oh yeh the other thing i forgot to mention is:the reason he was the lssj was because he had his tail when he was a ssj....the true form of ssj....no one else was able to do that..think about it...goku,vageta,goten, and trunks never had there tails when they turned...Brolly did...the only reason goku and vegeta turned ssj4 was because they had there tails....goku got his back from turning into the kid and vageta just had tooooo much brute waves....so yeh...hope that helps everyone....

[The Last]

Oh...and by the way....the LSSJ's were a group of elites that were the stronget....so there were others...they just didn't live....

[Hibiki]

Now with brolly, he just found a form noone else did. Gohan never did a ASSJ/USSJ before he went ssj2. It wasnt nessasary to get those states. same goes with brolly, Its not a higher state, persay, but just different "better" one. Its not "Legendary" just they like to call it that crap.

the real point is that brolly can clearly do something when hes ssj to make himself stronger only what he does isnt ussj or ssj2 and just more of a mix between the two

"legendary super saiyan" is just a title which can be used to describe that transformation because the only one who can ever use it is the legendary super saiyan its no different then calling what trunks did to fight perfect cell ussj

its never called that anywhere but its a title that can be used to explain that form